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	<title>Comments on: The Facts On Climategate</title>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3831</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3831</guid>
		<description>Hi Harvey... The petition you refer to was created in 1998 by an American physicist, the late Frederick Seitz, in response to the Kyoto Protocol a year earlier.

Now I ask you how many of those scientists and PHDs were Earth Scientists which have knowledge in this area of concern? Very few, if any, especially in 1998 numbers.

In fact one of the signatories, Frank Nuttall, a professor of medicine, said he believed the Earth was becoming warmer, despite his signature.

Just because one has the title of scientist does not mean he is an expert in all areas. Would you really let a geologist perform brain surgery on you?  I think not.

This petition urged the US government to reject the Kyoto treaty and said: &lt;strong&gt;&quot;The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.&quot;&lt;/strong&gt; - Really? - Please.

Just last month Australian officials were prompted to issue a shipping warning because of hundreds if not thousands, of Antarctic icebergs floating towards New Zealand. Scientist Neal Young (glaciologist) said they were the remains of a massive ice floe which split from the Antarctic as sea and air temperatures rise due to global warming.

Last week the World Meteorological Organization (WMO), announced the first decade of this century has been the hottest on record.

So, we are wrecking our planet and nothing has convinced me otherwise.

(P.S. It&#039;s Linda - not Lisa)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Harvey&#8230; The petition you refer to was created in 1998 by an American physicist, the late Frederick Seitz, in response to the Kyoto Protocol a year earlier.</p>
<p>Now I ask you how many of those scientists and PHDs were Earth Scientists which have knowledge in this area of concern? Very few, if any, especially in 1998 numbers.</p>
<p>In fact one of the signatories, Frank Nuttall, a professor of medicine, said he believed the Earth was becoming warmer, despite his signature.</p>
<p>Just because one has the title of scientist does not mean he is an expert in all areas. Would you really let a geologist perform brain surgery on you?  I think not.</p>
<p>This petition urged the US government to reject the Kyoto treaty and said: <strong>&#8220;The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.&#8221;</strong> &#8211; Really? &#8211; Please.</p>
<p>Just last month Australian officials were prompted to issue a shipping warning because of hundreds if not thousands, of Antarctic icebergs floating towards New Zealand. Scientist Neal Young (glaciologist) said they were the remains of a massive ice floe which split from the Antarctic as sea and air temperatures rise due to global warming.</p>
<p>Last week the World Meteorological Organization (WMO), announced the first decade of this century has been the hottest on record.</p>
<p>So, we are wrecking our planet and nothing has convinced me otherwise.</p>
<p>(P.S. It&#8217;s Linda &#8211; not Lisa)</p>
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		<title>By: harvey</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3830</link>
		<dc:creator>harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3830</guid>
		<description>Hi Lisa,
I disagree with some of the points ehich are presented as facts. Because I have little time to spend typing a new post, I am pasting something I wrote yesterday.

Source for the eight year decline number (a mere 0.05 per cent):
scienceandpublicpolicy.org/press/cooling_under-reported.html

This article from Speigel indicates temperatures have been more or less stable for ten years:
spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,662092,00.html

I do not consider the IPCC numbers (the ones the UN uses) to be a valid source, as the Eastanglia emails (leaked by an insider) have confirmed the scientific numbers presented were cooked (pls note that many the participants at Copenhagen have invested heavily in the 45trillion$ prospective carboncredit market - including the chairman of the IPCC (Rajendra K Pachauri), Gore, even Obama).

I tend to agree with Monckton (who shared Gore&#039;s Nobel prize as a scientist, member of the IPCC) the objective of the Copenhagen reunion was to lay down the framework for global taxation/governance.
Here is a funny/revealing video of Monckton interviewing a Greenpeace activist
youtube.com/watch?v=OzkB5DuveDE

Moreover, 31.000 US scientists including 9.000 PHds signed a petition stating there is no convincing evidence greenhouse gases leads to climate disruptions.
petitionproject.org/
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/2053842/Scientists-sign-petition-denying-man-made-global-warming.html

As for the polar ice caps, since 2007 the minimum extent has increased by 24 per cent or &quot;370,000 square miles&quot;
Official source:
nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2009/091709.html
According to Japanese satellite data, the 2009 curve has crossed the 2005 curve.
ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm
As for the Antarctic, the minimum extent has been noticeably above the 1979-2000 average in 2008 amd 2009.
nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images//daily_images/S_timeseries.png

PS Look into orgonite gifting and you may find an explanation to the drop/stablilization of measured temperatures over the last years ;-)
.-= harvey&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://beingandquirkiness.blogspot.com/2009/12/imagination-iii.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Imagination III&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lisa,<br />
I disagree with some of the points ehich are presented as facts. Because I have little time to spend typing a new post, I am pasting something I wrote yesterday.</p>
<p>Source for the eight year decline number (a mere 0.05 per cent):<br />
scienceandpublicpolicy.org/press/cooling_under-reported.html</p>
<p>This article from Speigel indicates temperatures have been more or less stable for ten years:<br />
spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,662092,00.html</p>
<p>I do not consider the IPCC numbers (the ones the UN uses) to be a valid source, as the Eastanglia emails (leaked by an insider) have confirmed the scientific numbers presented were cooked (pls note that many the participants at Copenhagen have invested heavily in the 45trillion$ prospective carboncredit market &#8211; including the chairman of the IPCC (Rajendra K Pachauri), Gore, even Obama).</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Monckton (who shared Gore&#8217;s Nobel prize as a scientist, member of the IPCC) the objective of the Copenhagen reunion was to lay down the framework for global taxation/governance.<br />
Here is a funny/revealing video of Monckton interviewing a Greenpeace activist<br />
youtube.com/watch?v=OzkB5DuveDE</p>
<p>Moreover, 31.000 US scientists including 9.000 PHds signed a petition stating there is no convincing evidence greenhouse gases leads to climate disruptions.<br />
petitionproject.org/<br />
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/2053842/Scientists-sign-petition-denying-man-made-global-warming.html</p>
<p>As for the polar ice caps, since 2007 the minimum extent has increased by 24 per cent or &#8220;370,000 square miles&#8221;<br />
Official source:<br />
nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2009/091709.html<br />
According to Japanese satellite data, the 2009 curve has crossed the 2005 curve.<br />
ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm<br />
As for the Antarctic, the minimum extent has been noticeably above the 1979-2000 average in 2008 amd 2009.<br />
nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images//daily_images/S_timeseries.png</p>
<p>PS Look into orgonite gifting and you may find an explanation to the drop/stablilization of measured temperatures over the last years <img src='http://www.forcedgreen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
.-= harvey&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://beingandquirkiness.blogspot.com/2009/12/imagination-iii.html">Imagination III</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3829</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3829</guid>
		<description>Hi solarglobalgreen ...  yes it is a shame but the more we talk about it, maybe they will understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi solarglobalgreen &#8230;  yes it is a shame but the more we talk about it, maybe they will understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3828</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3828</guid>
		<description>Hi Lissof

What a great, great environmental history lesson! Very eloquent words young man, thank you very much!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lissof</p>
<p>What a great, great environmental history lesson! Very eloquent words young man, thank you very much!</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3827</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3827</guid>
		<description>Hi John

Have hope in us Global Warming believers, I no more think turning any virgin forest into tree farms or anything else is a good idea and never will. The idea of turning all virgin forest into tree farms is utterly illogical. And I would guess-timate around 99% of folks that are concerned with the causes of Global Warming feel the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John</p>
<p>Have hope in us Global Warming believers, I no more think turning any virgin forest into tree farms or anything else is a good idea and never will. The idea of turning all virgin forest into tree farms is utterly illogical. And I would guess-timate around 99% of folks that are concerned with the causes of Global Warming feel the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: solarglobalgreen</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3826</link>
		<dc:creator>solarglobalgreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3826</guid>
		<description>It is a shame that people who never took the time to read the facts in the first place are now skewing the information for their purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a shame that people who never took the time to read the facts in the first place are now skewing the information for their purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Lissof</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3825</link>
		<dc:creator>Lissof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3825</guid>
		<description>Rachel Carson, when her book &quot;Silent Spring&quot; was published in 1962, was subjected to much criticism and ridicule, mainly supported by the major chemical industries.

  As a result of the overbearing attacks by industrial sponsored interests “Silent Spring” became a popular best-selling book and probably was the start of the environmental movement in the USA.

    My own father changed his use of chemicals on the farm, and shifted over to an organic style of husbandry. This caused quite a conflict as he had a job,off the farm, as a fieldman for agricultural chemical sales. I can remember many a heated debate he had, my father finally quit the position to concentrate on “his style” of farming. As a result I gained an appreciation of the gifts Mother Earth has to offer.

    I also remember the industrial pollution of the ‘60s. Factories belched chemical laced smoke from their stacks, discharged the most disgusting chemical concoctions in our waterways, municipalities sprayed an over abundance of pesticides in the air and water over populated areas.

  My first Earth Day, The first Earth Day, I remember the excitement and enthusiasm shared by the growing concerned citizens. Earth Day 1970 led to the creation of the United States Environmental Protection Agency and the passage of the Clean Air, Clean Water, and Endangered Species acts.

   Were there naysayers claiming financial ruin, massive deterioration of human standards of living, loss of food availability, rampant inflation due to increase cost of production, the USA would become a second rate nation, well yes there was.

 Did things change overnight? No. We had the best Politicians money could buy! Therefore it was a long and drawn out battle with very concerned deep pocket moneyed interests involved, many times the flow of progress changed with the election of a new political power agenda.

 But progress was made. Today the air and water is VISIBLY cleaner, consumers have safer products in their everyday life and hazardous awareness information for the proper use of those products.

    We now have instrumentation that can measure in the parts per million/ billion even trillion for some substances. Visibly cleaner is no longer the criteria for acceptable levels of contaminants.

   Coal, oil and natural gas are carbon based fuels that have been sequestered for a very, very, very long time. It would not take Scientists to account for the oil and coal consumed during the industrial era, transactions were recorded, and an accountant could compile the numbers.

FACT:   Coal, oil and natural gas consumed, has released CO2 that was not in the natural cycling of our earth environment for a long time, and is overwhelming the ability of earth cycles to re-sequester in a form and location not detrimental to our continued enjoyment of the earth as we have enjoyed in the past.

    With the aid of Father Time, Mother Earth has been able to endow us with a very beautiful garden to inhabit during this relatively short period we have been here. If we act to convert to non carbon based energy, we may be able to leave a legacy to our children’s children’s children. If we act now we may never know the tragedy we avoided.

If we do not act, our descendants may not have the opportunity to reverse any consequences we have left behind.

We still have the best Politicians money can buy. We still have the self-concerned deep pocket moneyed interests. Let us hope we can energize the concerned citizen to overcome these obstacles. No, it will not drive us back to the Stone Age.

 In the meantime let us enjoy our time here on earth, slow down a little, bike a little more, enjoy a vacation in the local natural surroundings and invest more in energy conservation at home. When possible conduct business via internet (email. Go To Meeting, Power Point, etc.)

When (not if) energy becomes more expensive, we will resort to alternative energy sources.

When denial of access to energy becomes a weapon of war, alternative energy will no longer be an alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel Carson, when her book &#8220;Silent Spring&#8221; was published in 1962, was subjected to much criticism and ridicule, mainly supported by the major chemical industries.</p>
<p>  As a result of the overbearing attacks by industrial sponsored interests “Silent Spring” became a popular best-selling book and probably was the start of the environmental movement in the USA.</p>
<p>    My own father changed his use of chemicals on the farm, and shifted over to an organic style of husbandry. This caused quite a conflict as he had a job,off the farm, as a fieldman for agricultural chemical sales. I can remember many a heated debate he had, my father finally quit the position to concentrate on “his style” of farming. As a result I gained an appreciation of the gifts Mother Earth has to offer.</p>
<p>    I also remember the industrial pollution of the ‘60s. Factories belched chemical laced smoke from their stacks, discharged the most disgusting chemical concoctions in our waterways, municipalities sprayed an over abundance of pesticides in the air and water over populated areas.</p>
<p>  My first Earth Day, The first Earth Day, I remember the excitement and enthusiasm shared by the growing concerned citizens. Earth Day 1970 led to the creation of the United States Environmental Protection Agency and the passage of the Clean Air, Clean Water, and Endangered Species acts.</p>
<p>   Were there naysayers claiming financial ruin, massive deterioration of human standards of living, loss of food availability, rampant inflation due to increase cost of production, the USA would become a second rate nation, well yes there was.</p>
<p> Did things change overnight? No. We had the best Politicians money could buy! Therefore it was a long and drawn out battle with very concerned deep pocket moneyed interests involved, many times the flow of progress changed with the election of a new political power agenda.</p>
<p> But progress was made. Today the air and water is VISIBLY cleaner, consumers have safer products in their everyday life and hazardous awareness information for the proper use of those products.</p>
<p>    We now have instrumentation that can measure in the parts per million/ billion even trillion for some substances. Visibly cleaner is no longer the criteria for acceptable levels of contaminants.</p>
<p>   Coal, oil and natural gas are carbon based fuels that have been sequestered for a very, very, very long time. It would not take Scientists to account for the oil and coal consumed during the industrial era, transactions were recorded, and an accountant could compile the numbers.</p>
<p>FACT:   Coal, oil and natural gas consumed, has released CO2 that was not in the natural cycling of our earth environment for a long time, and is overwhelming the ability of earth cycles to re-sequester in a form and location not detrimental to our continued enjoyment of the earth as we have enjoyed in the past.</p>
<p>    With the aid of Father Time, Mother Earth has been able to endow us with a very beautiful garden to inhabit during this relatively short period we have been here. If we act to convert to non carbon based energy, we may be able to leave a legacy to our children’s children’s children. If we act now we may never know the tragedy we avoided.</p>
<p>If we do not act, our descendants may not have the opportunity to reverse any consequences we have left behind.</p>
<p>We still have the best Politicians money can buy. We still have the self-concerned deep pocket moneyed interests. Let us hope we can energize the concerned citizen to overcome these obstacles. No, it will not drive us back to the Stone Age.</p>
<p> In the meantime let us enjoy our time here on earth, slow down a little, bike a little more, enjoy a vacation in the local natural surroundings and invest more in energy conservation at home. When possible conduct business via internet (email. Go To Meeting, Power Point, etc.)</p>
<p>When (not if) energy becomes more expensive, we will resort to alternative energy sources.</p>
<p>When denial of access to energy becomes a weapon of war, alternative energy will no longer be an alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3824</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3824</guid>
		<description>&quot;So, in the mean time tree farms are really doing more good than harm and saving virgin forest.&quot;

i agree. but what i&#039;m concerned about is the politicians who just want money, money, money.  they&#039;ve got GW believers is their theories that turning ALL forests into tree farms is a good idea.  they&#039;ve got their foot in the door, i just don&#039;t want them to enter the room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, in the mean time tree farms are really doing more good than harm and saving virgin forest.&#8221;</p>
<p>i agree. but what i&#8217;m concerned about is the politicians who just want money, money, money.  they&#8217;ve got GW believers is their theories that turning ALL forests into tree farms is a good idea.  they&#8217;ve got their foot in the door, i just don&#8217;t want them to enter the room.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3823</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 13:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3823</guid>
		<description>I guess you didn&#039;t see the movie &quot;Carbon Connection&quot; yet.  these rules, cap &amp; trade, were written FOR the industry.  It allows them to keep polluting as they once were, buying shares in tree farms which destroys the ecology of natural forests surrounding them.  this is no place to start from.

Cap &amp; trade agreements are not for the ecology.  there are for the Money.  tree farms are not forests.  tree farms are not for the ecology. there are for the MONEY.  you said it yourself. &quot;I see it as a most sustainable PRODUCT.&quot; forests should not be products, that you can buy or sell for MONEY.  they&#039;re much too important for that.

The wide range of tree ages and heights in oldgrowth forests create &quot;multi-layered&quot; canopies. Different species, including birds, live in different canopy layers.

Tree farms that are cut on short rotations do not have the time to develop layers of lichens, ferns and mosses which grow on the trunks and branches of trees and which are a distinct feature of oldgrowth forests.

Oldgrowth forests support many species that require or prefer ancient forest habitat.

This is from The Rainforest Action Network.

Wild naturally evolving forests are an essential component of the biosphere&#039;s life support system. Aside from providing innumerable services to humanity, forests fulfill the vital functions of preserving wildlife habitat, stabilizing the Earth&#039;s climate, protecting watersheds, and maintaining soil productivity. They are home to most of the world&#039;s vast array of life forms. Natural forests need to be viewed as dynamic, diverse, and integrated systems as articulated in the emerging science of conservation biology and ecology. Their whole systems character must be both protected and restored.
http://ran.org/who_we_are/reports_publications/500_year_plan_by_randy_hayes/

I guess you can see how much i hate logging, huh?  :O)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess you didn&#8217;t see the movie &#8220;Carbon Connection&#8221; yet.  these rules, cap &amp; trade, were written FOR the industry.  It allows them to keep polluting as they once were, buying shares in tree farms which destroys the ecology of natural forests surrounding them.  this is no place to start from.</p>
<p>Cap &amp; trade agreements are not for the ecology.  there are for the Money.  tree farms are not forests.  tree farms are not for the ecology. there are for the MONEY.  you said it yourself. &#8220;I see it as a most sustainable PRODUCT.&#8221; forests should not be products, that you can buy or sell for MONEY.  they&#8217;re much too important for that.</p>
<p>The wide range of tree ages and heights in oldgrowth forests create &#8220;multi-layered&#8221; canopies. Different species, including birds, live in different canopy layers.</p>
<p>Tree farms that are cut on short rotations do not have the time to develop layers of lichens, ferns and mosses which grow on the trunks and branches of trees and which are a distinct feature of oldgrowth forests.</p>
<p>Oldgrowth forests support many species that require or prefer ancient forest habitat.</p>
<p>This is from The Rainforest Action Network.</p>
<p>Wild naturally evolving forests are an essential component of the biosphere&#8217;s life support system. Aside from providing innumerable services to humanity, forests fulfill the vital functions of preserving wildlife habitat, stabilizing the Earth&#8217;s climate, protecting watersheds, and maintaining soil productivity. They are home to most of the world&#8217;s vast array of life forms. Natural forests need to be viewed as dynamic, diverse, and integrated systems as articulated in the emerging science of conservation biology and ecology. Their whole systems character must be both protected and restored.<br />
<a href="http://ran.org/who_we_are/reports_publications/500_year_plan_by_randy_hayes/">http://ran.org/who_we_are/reports_publications/500_year_plan_by_randy_hayes/</a></p>
<p>I guess you can see how much i hate logging, huh?  :O)</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.forcedgreen.com/2009/12/the-facts-on-climategate/#comment-3822</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.forcedgreen.com/?p=1910#comment-3822</guid>
		<description>Hi Brad ...  Yes there has been a discussion on the subject, pros and/or cons, which will continue for a while.  However, my wish is that all of our rooms are clean.  :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brad &#8230;  Yes there has been a discussion on the subject, pros and/or cons, which will continue for a while.  However, my wish is that all of our rooms are clean.  <img src='http://www.forcedgreen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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